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  • The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine
  • Nov. 6, 1869
  • Page 11
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, Nov. 6, 1869: Page 11

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Correspondence.

lative Masonry , " you mean really , Masonry such as we know to have been practised since the Revival of 1717 ; and certainly , in that sense , I contend the operative Masonry of former years is vastly different , although not so much as to prevent our seeing sufficient points of resemblance to prove one was the forerunner of the other . "

I received Bro . Hughan ' s permission to publish the above , and I shall now comment upon it . He admits that " there was no Masonry of the character of the Freemasonry of the 18 th century" before 1717 ; so far , therefore , Bro . Hughan has not thrown over the 1717 date , as some at pages 308 and 309 would fain imagine- furtherBro . Hughan still

, , asserts that our " three degrees ' ' did not exist before then . With Bro . Hughan I , of course , admit that " gentlemen were admitted " before 1717 ; but I do not admit that they thereby became " speculative Masons " in any such sense as ice now understand the term ; for , before 1717 , they neither received the

doctrines nor degrees we now promulgate and practise ; they were simply gentlemen members having a sort of honorary connexion with an operative society . Again , when non-operatives joined a Masonic friendly society , that was not for the purpose of becoming . specidative Masonsso far as our degrees & cwere

, , , concerned , for said degrees were not in existence before 1717 . They had a word or countersign ( as a soldier has ) and a bit of " apron-washing , " but that was merely something similar to the practices of other trades . Consequently , a gentleman joining the Masons' Society before 1717 became no more a

" speculative Mason" thereby than his joining the old operative weavers' or cordiners' societies would haxe made him a speculative weaver or a speculative cordiner . In short , the objects and ideas of the Masonic members before 1717 were different from what they became after that date .

Of course I admit that operative Masonry was " the forerunner " of speculative Masonry ; but I object to the former being called the father of the latter , for I assert that speculative Masonry was grafted on to operative Masonry .

It was not operative Masonry that gradually developed itself into speculative Freemasonry—no ! It was the doctrines and ideas stirred up by the Reformation which Desaguliers & Co . took hold of and made into speculative Freemasonry that constituted our present system and gave it its grand ideas ; to pass these ideas into active circulation they made

use of operative Masonry , hence the great change about A . D . 1717 , which was not a development of , but a grafting on . It has been the not perceiving this " point " that has led to so many absurd notions regarding Freemasonry aud its supposed antiquity , & c ., and which

enabled so many mushroom legends to spring up and spread abroad . From the above remarks it may perhaps be seen that it will take a stronger wind than any we have yet felt to uproot the 1717 date ; possibly , as the wind does to a good tree sometimes , the shaking will

only cause it to take deeper root . *• Yours fraternally , W . P . BUCHAN .

Correspondence.

THE FIRST GRAND LODGE OF ENGLAND . 10 THE EDITOR OE THE FREEMASONS' MAGAZINE AND MASONIC MIBEOE . Dear Sir and Brother , —As so much has _ been written of late tending to undermine the faith of the fraternity in the antiquity of our traditionary

Order , a transcript of the following extract from one of our standard works may tend to quiet the minds of those who are unsettled on the subject -. — "King Edward died in 924 , and was succeeded by Athelstane , his son , who appointed his brother Edwin Patron of the MasonsThis Prince procured a

. charter from Athelstane , empowering them to meet annually at York , where the first Grand Lodge of England was formed in 962 , at which Edwin presided as Grand Master . Here many old writings were produced in Greek , Latin , and other languages , from which the Constitutions of the English lodges

are derived . "—Vide Dr . Oliver ' s Preston ' s " Illustrations of Masonry , ' ' 17 th edition , p . 118 . Yours fraternally , JESSE BANNING .

AUXILIARY LODGES . TO THE EDITOB OU THE EKEEJIASONs' MAGAZINE AND MASONIC UIEKOfe . Dear Sir and Brother , —A question has been raised whether an auxiliary lodge can be held under the same roof of a Masonic Hall for the purposeof

^ initiating , passing , and raising candidates , the object heing simply to aid the presiding W . M . to get through the evening without postponing any of the candidates to another day . To present the question in a somewhat clearer formI may observe that there are three initiations

, , three passings , and three raisings to be completed , and , with a view of concluding all the business of the evening , the W . M . of the lodge proposes to take the three raisings with the assistance of his regular officers , and to depute a P . M . of the lodge with a staff of officers to initiate and pass the others in

another room in the hall , which is in every particular suitable for the ceremonies , he having the proper tracing-boards and working tools appropriate to the two degrees . It is contended that this would not be

incorrect , as the whole business would be done under the same roof and within the same walls of the building dedicated solely for Masonic purposes . The proposed course is assimilated to a Court of Quarter Sessions , when the chairman sometimes requests some of his brother magistrates to open a second or even third court for the further and more speedy dispatch

of business . The object will beat once apparent ; the whole business will be accomplished in one night without putting so severe a strain on the physical and mental energies of the W . M . and his officers , in addition to which the lodge would be closed at a reasonable hour , thereby enabling the brethren to

return to their respective homes at a very much earlier hour . I shall be glad if any of your correspondents will give me their views upon this important question , and further to say if they remember any similar event taking place , and , if so , when and where . Yours fraternally , ^ B . *

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1869-11-06, Page 11” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 23 June 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_06111869/page/11/.
  • List
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Title Category Page
Untitled Article 1
GOTHIC ARCHITECTURE AND OPERATIVE FREEMASONRY. Article 1
Untitled Article 2
MASONIC CELESTIAL MYSTERIES. Article 2
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 8
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 10
LAYING THE FOUNDATION STONE OF THE NEW PUBLIC BATHS AT ASHTON-UNDERLTNE, LANCASHIRE WEST. Article 12
Untitled Article 13
MASONIC MEMS. Article 13
Craft Masonry. Article 13
PROVINCIAL. Article 14
SCOTTISH CONSTITUTION. Article 17
ROYAL ARCH. Article 18
MARK MASONRY. Article 18
ANTIENT AND ACCEPTED RITE. Article 18
THEATRICAL AND MUSICAL NOTES. Article 19
SCIENTIFIC MEETINGS FOR THE WEEK. Article 19
LIST OF LODGE, MEETINGS, &c., FOR WEEK ENDING 13TH NOVEMBER, 1869. Article 19
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 20
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

Correspondence.

lative Masonry , " you mean really , Masonry such as we know to have been practised since the Revival of 1717 ; and certainly , in that sense , I contend the operative Masonry of former years is vastly different , although not so much as to prevent our seeing sufficient points of resemblance to prove one was the forerunner of the other . "

I received Bro . Hughan ' s permission to publish the above , and I shall now comment upon it . He admits that " there was no Masonry of the character of the Freemasonry of the 18 th century" before 1717 ; so far , therefore , Bro . Hughan has not thrown over the 1717 date , as some at pages 308 and 309 would fain imagine- furtherBro . Hughan still

, , asserts that our " three degrees ' ' did not exist before then . With Bro . Hughan I , of course , admit that " gentlemen were admitted " before 1717 ; but I do not admit that they thereby became " speculative Masons " in any such sense as ice now understand the term ; for , before 1717 , they neither received the

doctrines nor degrees we now promulgate and practise ; they were simply gentlemen members having a sort of honorary connexion with an operative society . Again , when non-operatives joined a Masonic friendly society , that was not for the purpose of becoming . specidative Masonsso far as our degrees & cwere

, , , concerned , for said degrees were not in existence before 1717 . They had a word or countersign ( as a soldier has ) and a bit of " apron-washing , " but that was merely something similar to the practices of other trades . Consequently , a gentleman joining the Masons' Society before 1717 became no more a

" speculative Mason" thereby than his joining the old operative weavers' or cordiners' societies would haxe made him a speculative weaver or a speculative cordiner . In short , the objects and ideas of the Masonic members before 1717 were different from what they became after that date .

Of course I admit that operative Masonry was " the forerunner " of speculative Masonry ; but I object to the former being called the father of the latter , for I assert that speculative Masonry was grafted on to operative Masonry .

It was not operative Masonry that gradually developed itself into speculative Freemasonry—no ! It was the doctrines and ideas stirred up by the Reformation which Desaguliers & Co . took hold of and made into speculative Freemasonry that constituted our present system and gave it its grand ideas ; to pass these ideas into active circulation they made

use of operative Masonry , hence the great change about A . D . 1717 , which was not a development of , but a grafting on . It has been the not perceiving this " point " that has led to so many absurd notions regarding Freemasonry aud its supposed antiquity , & c ., and which

enabled so many mushroom legends to spring up and spread abroad . From the above remarks it may perhaps be seen that it will take a stronger wind than any we have yet felt to uproot the 1717 date ; possibly , as the wind does to a good tree sometimes , the shaking will

only cause it to take deeper root . *• Yours fraternally , W . P . BUCHAN .

Correspondence.

THE FIRST GRAND LODGE OF ENGLAND . 10 THE EDITOR OE THE FREEMASONS' MAGAZINE AND MASONIC MIBEOE . Dear Sir and Brother , —As so much has _ been written of late tending to undermine the faith of the fraternity in the antiquity of our traditionary

Order , a transcript of the following extract from one of our standard works may tend to quiet the minds of those who are unsettled on the subject -. — "King Edward died in 924 , and was succeeded by Athelstane , his son , who appointed his brother Edwin Patron of the MasonsThis Prince procured a

. charter from Athelstane , empowering them to meet annually at York , where the first Grand Lodge of England was formed in 962 , at which Edwin presided as Grand Master . Here many old writings were produced in Greek , Latin , and other languages , from which the Constitutions of the English lodges

are derived . "—Vide Dr . Oliver ' s Preston ' s " Illustrations of Masonry , ' ' 17 th edition , p . 118 . Yours fraternally , JESSE BANNING .

AUXILIARY LODGES . TO THE EDITOB OU THE EKEEJIASONs' MAGAZINE AND MASONIC UIEKOfe . Dear Sir and Brother , —A question has been raised whether an auxiliary lodge can be held under the same roof of a Masonic Hall for the purposeof

^ initiating , passing , and raising candidates , the object heing simply to aid the presiding W . M . to get through the evening without postponing any of the candidates to another day . To present the question in a somewhat clearer formI may observe that there are three initiations

, , three passings , and three raisings to be completed , and , with a view of concluding all the business of the evening , the W . M . of the lodge proposes to take the three raisings with the assistance of his regular officers , and to depute a P . M . of the lodge with a staff of officers to initiate and pass the others in

another room in the hall , which is in every particular suitable for the ceremonies , he having the proper tracing-boards and working tools appropriate to the two degrees . It is contended that this would not be

incorrect , as the whole business would be done under the same roof and within the same walls of the building dedicated solely for Masonic purposes . The proposed course is assimilated to a Court of Quarter Sessions , when the chairman sometimes requests some of his brother magistrates to open a second or even third court for the further and more speedy dispatch

of business . The object will beat once apparent ; the whole business will be accomplished in one night without putting so severe a strain on the physical and mental energies of the W . M . and his officers , in addition to which the lodge would be closed at a reasonable hour , thereby enabling the brethren to

return to their respective homes at a very much earlier hour . I shall be glad if any of your correspondents will give me their views upon this important question , and further to say if they remember any similar event taking place , and , if so , when and where . Yours fraternally , ^ B . *

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