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  • Sept. 11, 1869
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, Sept. 11, 1869: Page 12

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    Article MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. ← Page 2 of 3 →
Page 12

Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

Masonic Notes And Queries.

THE ANTIQUITX OF FEEEMASONBX , In replying to Bro . Sanderson , our valued friend , Bro . Hughan , says that in 1641 the "Hon . " Eohert Moray joined St . Mary ' s Chapel , Lodge , Edinburgh . This being so , I cannot make out why the existence of " speculative" Masonry at the date in question

should be denied . The "Hon . " gentleman could scarcely have been an " operative " brother . I hold that "speculative" and '"' operative " Masonry were man and wife long before their divorce , and with all respect to Bro . Hughan , I think it very probable that "speculative" Masonry

existed long before Grand Lodges and Grand Oflicers . Further , if the three degrees existed in 1 . 717 as they exist now , I maintain that they hear internal evidence of having been gradually elaborated , and that from the nature of things they coulcl not have been wholly concocted in 1717 .

It is quite possible to reiterate a statement until it becomes generally accepted ; and I fear we are now in danger of making our Order too " modem " —while formerly it was considered to he more ancient than it deserved—simply because Bros . Hughan arid Buchan keep insisting on their pet date . —J . A . H .

QUALIFICATIONS ( p . 189 ) . It is proper to impose fitting restrictions on candidates , but said restrictions should be in accordance with common sense and the principles , objects , and spirit of the Institution which the candidate desires to join . —PLUHB-EE .

BEFOBMATION THEORY OI ? THE ORIGIN OF FEEEMASOKRX . When penning my late remarks upon this point ( p . 165 et ante ) , I was unaware of direct mention havirf g been made of " the Eeformation in Britain " in the old 1723 Constitutions or Charges ; however

, having just received Bro . Hughan ' s valuable reprint —with its scarcel y less valuable preface—I am glad to see my ideas , derived from other sources , so far borne out , as shown by the following quotation from Head VI ., clause 2 : — " This Charge has been always strictl y enjoin'd and ohserv'd ; but especially ever

since the JReformation in Britain , or the Dissent and Secession of these Nations from the Communion of Some . " Therefore , since honour should be given to whom it is due , I am inclined to consider that the Eeformation had something to do with the spirit and doctrines of speculate Freemasonry , just as operative Masonry had to do with its nomenclature . —TV " . P . BUCHAN .

FEEE : MASONRX ABOUT lo 2 XEAES OLD . In July 17 th , et ante , is given a list of 3-10 English lodges in existence up to 1765 . Some assert that so many could not have arisen between 1717 and 1765 . I consider this idea a mistake , for Avithin even the last ten years alone the Grand Lodge of England has added about 450 to her roll . —W . P . B .

ONE-AKHED HEROES . One-armed Tomo , the swarthy vagabond of the western forests , is only remembered as a hearty fellow —prince of hunters and doctor of all woodcraftwhose single arm was worth more than most men ' s two , and without whose help the map of Vancouver

would have been but a sorry blank yet , and the first exploring expedition a forgotten affair . — Cassell's " Illustrated Travels , " FEEEMASONEX ( pp . 173 , 189 ) . Bro . Buclian ' s suggestion is probably right . Many of the guilds and fraternities of the middle ages were

simply benefit societies , of which we haA'e some very old rules , and the practice is kept up in the Eomau Catholic Church . It is easy to conceive that in a South American town now , the number of Masons increasing , would , on the celebration of John the Baptist , meet in the Church , form themselves into a

confraternity of St . John the Baptist , raising subscri p tions to have a yearly mass on that saint ' s day , to provide for the funerals of members , and for the performance of masses for their souls . Some of the trade guilds of England were such fraternities , chartered or unchartered , and there are companies now existing which date from such ancient origin . —H . C

MASONIC PEOBLE 3 I . Bro . W-P . B . —usually so correct in his views—can hardly be so in his assumption that the admission of a Pree Mason , a Free Tailor , or a Pree Carpenter was just the same . The evidence as to Masons is clear that the Masons in various parts of Europe did have a ceremony of their own aud a system of signs . The

independent evidence of Germany is very valuable on this head . There is every reason for supposing that other crafts and guilds had systems and ceremonies not so tenaciously adhered to , aud the evidence on this head should be collected . At all events , so far as the

city companies or guilds of London are concerned , many relics remain of old ceremonies . These are particularly well known in the ceremonies of the investiture and installation of the Worshipful Master and Wardens . In some cases this is by drinking with the loving-cup ( as the Cloth-Workers ) , in one case by im estiture with a Cap of Maintenance ( the Skinners' Company ) . A few notes ou these matters may draw forth many illustrations . —H . O .

THE THIED DEGREE ( p . 190 ) . It is of course very difficult to obtain absolute evidence as to the real antiquity of the third degree . Internal evidence goes for very little , but it is deserving of investigation . The legend of this degree is peculiar , and it is distinctive as compared with the

first and second . It also differs in its treatment from the other legendary degrees , except so far as other legendary degrees are developments of the third . The question is , what is the origin of the legend of the third degree . Was it a pure invention of the last century , or is it the working up of an old legend .

It has not the look of the invented degrees , and it is desirable to know Avhether any germs of this legend are to be found before the eighteenth century in books or MSS . The likely place for search is in apocryphal and spurious scriptures of the eastern churches and in rabbinical legends . —H . C .

BRO . ELIAS ASH-AIOLE . It appears that Elias Ashmole was a contributor to the Middle Temple Library . It will be worth while to enquire there for MSS . Of course we know the bulk of his MSS . are in his own collections at Oxford . — EEADEE .

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1869-09-11, Page 12” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 20 June 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_11091869/page/12/.
  • List
  • Grid
Title Category Page
Untitled Article 1
RECOGNITION OF NOVA SCOTIA. Article 1
CHIPS OF FOREIGN ASHLAR. Article 2
MASONIC GOVERNMENT. Article 4
MELROSE ABBEY AND LODGE. Article 5
MASONIC CELESTIAL MYSTERIES. Article 9
THE ANCIENT RECORDS OF "THE LODGE OF EDINBURGH (MARY'S CHAPEL)," No. 1. Article 11
NON-OPERATIVE OFFICE-BEARERS OR SCOTCH LODGES IN THE 17TH CENTURY. Article 11
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 11
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 13
"CHIPS OF FOREIGN ASHLAR ;" OR, BURNS IMPROVED (pp. 184-186). Article 13
MASONIC DISCIPLINE. Article 13
BROADFOOT, THOMPSON, AND MUGGERIDGE'S RITUAL . Article 14
Untitled Article 15
MASONIC MEMS Article 15
UNITED GRAND LODGE. Article 15
METROPOLITAN. Article 16
PROVINCIAL. Article 16
MARK MASONRY. Article 18
LIST OF STEWARDS AT THE INAUGURATION FESTIVAL, 14TH APRIL, 1869. Article 19
Poetry. Article 19
MASONIC SONG. Article 19
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, MUSIC, DRAMA, AND THE FINE ARTS. Article 20
LIST OF LODGE, &c., MEETINGS FOR WEEK ENDING 18TH SEPTEMBER, 1869. Article 20
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 20
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

Masonic Notes And Queries.

THE ANTIQUITX OF FEEEMASONBX , In replying to Bro . Sanderson , our valued friend , Bro . Hughan , says that in 1641 the "Hon . " Eohert Moray joined St . Mary ' s Chapel , Lodge , Edinburgh . This being so , I cannot make out why the existence of " speculative" Masonry at the date in question

should be denied . The "Hon . " gentleman could scarcely have been an " operative " brother . I hold that "speculative" and '"' operative " Masonry were man and wife long before their divorce , and with all respect to Bro . Hughan , I think it very probable that "speculative" Masonry

existed long before Grand Lodges and Grand Oflicers . Further , if the three degrees existed in 1 . 717 as they exist now , I maintain that they hear internal evidence of having been gradually elaborated , and that from the nature of things they coulcl not have been wholly concocted in 1717 .

It is quite possible to reiterate a statement until it becomes generally accepted ; and I fear we are now in danger of making our Order too " modem " —while formerly it was considered to he more ancient than it deserved—simply because Bros . Hughan arid Buchan keep insisting on their pet date . —J . A . H .

QUALIFICATIONS ( p . 189 ) . It is proper to impose fitting restrictions on candidates , but said restrictions should be in accordance with common sense and the principles , objects , and spirit of the Institution which the candidate desires to join . —PLUHB-EE .

BEFOBMATION THEORY OI ? THE ORIGIN OF FEEEMASOKRX . When penning my late remarks upon this point ( p . 165 et ante ) , I was unaware of direct mention havirf g been made of " the Eeformation in Britain " in the old 1723 Constitutions or Charges ; however

, having just received Bro . Hughan ' s valuable reprint —with its scarcel y less valuable preface—I am glad to see my ideas , derived from other sources , so far borne out , as shown by the following quotation from Head VI ., clause 2 : — " This Charge has been always strictl y enjoin'd and ohserv'd ; but especially ever

since the JReformation in Britain , or the Dissent and Secession of these Nations from the Communion of Some . " Therefore , since honour should be given to whom it is due , I am inclined to consider that the Eeformation had something to do with the spirit and doctrines of speculate Freemasonry , just as operative Masonry had to do with its nomenclature . —TV " . P . BUCHAN .

FEEE : MASONRX ABOUT lo 2 XEAES OLD . In July 17 th , et ante , is given a list of 3-10 English lodges in existence up to 1765 . Some assert that so many could not have arisen between 1717 and 1765 . I consider this idea a mistake , for Avithin even the last ten years alone the Grand Lodge of England has added about 450 to her roll . —W . P . B .

ONE-AKHED HEROES . One-armed Tomo , the swarthy vagabond of the western forests , is only remembered as a hearty fellow —prince of hunters and doctor of all woodcraftwhose single arm was worth more than most men ' s two , and without whose help the map of Vancouver

would have been but a sorry blank yet , and the first exploring expedition a forgotten affair . — Cassell's " Illustrated Travels , " FEEEMASONEX ( pp . 173 , 189 ) . Bro . Buclian ' s suggestion is probably right . Many of the guilds and fraternities of the middle ages were

simply benefit societies , of which we haA'e some very old rules , and the practice is kept up in the Eomau Catholic Church . It is easy to conceive that in a South American town now , the number of Masons increasing , would , on the celebration of John the Baptist , meet in the Church , form themselves into a

confraternity of St . John the Baptist , raising subscri p tions to have a yearly mass on that saint ' s day , to provide for the funerals of members , and for the performance of masses for their souls . Some of the trade guilds of England were such fraternities , chartered or unchartered , and there are companies now existing which date from such ancient origin . —H . C

MASONIC PEOBLE 3 I . Bro . W-P . B . —usually so correct in his views—can hardly be so in his assumption that the admission of a Pree Mason , a Free Tailor , or a Pree Carpenter was just the same . The evidence as to Masons is clear that the Masons in various parts of Europe did have a ceremony of their own aud a system of signs . The

independent evidence of Germany is very valuable on this head . There is every reason for supposing that other crafts and guilds had systems and ceremonies not so tenaciously adhered to , aud the evidence on this head should be collected . At all events , so far as the

city companies or guilds of London are concerned , many relics remain of old ceremonies . These are particularly well known in the ceremonies of the investiture and installation of the Worshipful Master and Wardens . In some cases this is by drinking with the loving-cup ( as the Cloth-Workers ) , in one case by im estiture with a Cap of Maintenance ( the Skinners' Company ) . A few notes ou these matters may draw forth many illustrations . —H . O .

THE THIED DEGREE ( p . 190 ) . It is of course very difficult to obtain absolute evidence as to the real antiquity of the third degree . Internal evidence goes for very little , but it is deserving of investigation . The legend of this degree is peculiar , and it is distinctive as compared with the

first and second . It also differs in its treatment from the other legendary degrees , except so far as other legendary degrees are developments of the third . The question is , what is the origin of the legend of the third degree . Was it a pure invention of the last century , or is it the working up of an old legend .

It has not the look of the invented degrees , and it is desirable to know Avhether any germs of this legend are to be found before the eighteenth century in books or MSS . The likely place for search is in apocryphal and spurious scriptures of the eastern churches and in rabbinical legends . —H . C .

BRO . ELIAS ASH-AIOLE . It appears that Elias Ashmole was a contributor to the Middle Temple Library . It will be worth while to enquire there for MSS . Of course we know the bulk of his MSS . are in his own collections at Oxford . — EEADEE .

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