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  • The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine
  • March 27, 1869
  • Page 11
  • CORRESPONDENCE.
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, March 27, 1869: Page 11

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    Article CORRESPONDENCE. ← Page 2 of 2
    Article CORRESPONDENCE. Page 2 of 2
    Article MASONIC DISCIPLINE. By CRUX. Page 1 of 1
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Correspondence.

afterwaras be initiated , and that this fee should be made a part of the charity fund for the relief of the indigent and distressed brethren , the Kilwinning Lodge petitioned that this fee should not be demanded from the operative Masons , many of whom found it difficult enough to advance tlie dues to their respective lodges . This request of the Kilwinning Masons

, however , was rejected ; and the Grand Lodge decreed that those who refused or neglected to pay the entrymoney , should receive no aid from the charity fund . " "The Kilwinning Masons " do not seem to have been well pleased at their petition being rejected , for shortly afterin 1743 Bro . Laurie again tells us ( page

, , 162 ) , that " a letter was read from the Lodge of Kilwinning , complaining that they were only second on the roll , while , as the mother loclge of Scotland , tbey were entitled to the first place . The Grand Lodge decreed that , as the Lodge of Kilwinning had produced no documents to show that they were the

oldest lodge in Scotland , and as the Lodge of Mary ' s Chapel had shown their records as far back as 1598 , the latter had an undoubted right to continue first on the roll . " The then Grand Lodge seems to have been composed of sensible men , who justly refused to

acknowledge the Lodge of Kilwinning ' s foundationless pretensions to be " the Mother Lodge of Scotland . " Mary ' s Chapel was , therefore , allowed to keep her position of No . 1 . Kilwinning then breaking faith with the G-rand Lodge , withdrew after seven years association , and set up , most unwarrantablya sort of rival Grand

, Lodge of its own . I say "breaking faith , " because the ground of excuse for their withdrawal was false . They wished to supersede Mary ' s Chapel , because , says Kilwinning , we are " the Mother Lodge of Scotland . " The Grand Lodge of 1743 , however , could not see that , no proof of any such assertion

being forthcoming ( nor I fear ever will ) ; so "Mother Kilwinning " taking the huff , as I said , breaks faith , and without any just or true reason leaves the Grand Lodge . In' 1807 , however , a new generation of Grand Lodge existed , composed it would seem of a greater number

of believing brethren , many of whom no doubt sucked in a certain portion of faith for the Kilwinning assertion ( or legend , being now 64 years older than in 1743 ) from the veritable fountain of Bro . A . Lauries ' lately published " History of Freemasonry , " 1804 .

( A query arises—Was there any ill-feeling between Mary ' s Chapel and Bro . Laurie about or before this time ?) In 1807 , therefore , the lodge of Kilwinning finding their legend now likely to have more practical effect * joined the Grand Lodge again , having the assurance to ask what it unfairly receivedviz . precedence of

, , "its ancient metropolitan rival , " and not that alone , but that its Master was to rank as Provincial Grand Master , and the fees for recording its entrants were to be considerably lower than those of its sister lodges in the kingdom . Of course this is the Kilwinning idea of Masonic equality . "What shall we

say , however , when it is now found that Mother Kilwinning ' s pretensions are simply an imposition , and its boasted motherhood of Masonry in Scotland false ?

Correspondence.

The least we can say is that justice to its sister lodges demands that its false plumes should be stripped off , and the Kilwinning lodge put upon the levelas it surely ought to be— -with its sister lodges . Bro , Lyon tells us , page 201 , that in 1807 " a solitary individual of Mary ' s Chapel entered his protest against the arrangements then made . " The name of this

"solitary individual " deserves to be recorded , and to be had in reverence by the brethren of Mary ' s Chapel . It is by the simple efforts of a few solitary individuals that we have gained so much Masonic knowledge lately . Galileo was a ' solitary individual" when he pronounced the words , "E pur se' muove . " Yet he

was ri ght , and the haughty multitude who surrounded him wrong , and I need not multiply examples . In regard to the ' * ' Ordinance " affecting Mother Kilwinning , said to have been written in 1589 , and subscribed " William Schaw , Master of "Wark , "Wairden of ye Maisons " ( a copy of which is given page 302 of the Magazine for April 1883 ) , I am not sure of its being genuine this idea rises from certain remarks , & c , which it contains . However , I shall think over it .

Bro . Lyon admits the value of Professor Lines , , opinion , and Mr . Innes says , "no Masons'lodge in the world can have had a charter from any Malcolm king of Scots . " "Well Malcolm IV . died in 1165 , and the Kilwinning brethren say their "lodge" was formed in 1140 . If it could have been then in existence what should prevent it getting a charter from

Malcolm IV ., seeing they were—at least so they say — " the mother lodge ? " when the builders of Glasgow Cathedral got one from his brother "William the Lion in 1190 , which Glasgow charter , Professor Innes says , " would make faith in any court of law . " Leaving our esteemed brother D . Murray Lyon to solve that problem , * I am fraternally yours , "W . P . BUCHAS " .

Masonic Discipline. By Crux.

MASONIC DISCIPLINE . By CRUX .

TO THE EDITOR OF THE EKEEMASOXS' MAGAZINE AUD MASONIC MIIIROB . Dear Sir and Brother , — -As the little fraternal " spar" between Bro . Pictus and myself may now be considered at an end , will you allow me , through the medium of your columns , to thank ' him for his good wishes , and also to assure him that I fully

reciprocate the feeling ' with which he comments upon my articles . I trust that should he , or any other brother not agree with any remarks that I may make , they will attack me in the same fraternal spirit . I shall defend myself of course , as every contributor to your valuable columns is bound to do , and in doing

so I shall be actuated by the same motives that have influenced me in everything that I have had to do with the Craft , namely , the advancement and welfare of the true interests of our Order . Yours fraternally , CEUX . London , 22 nd March , 1869 .

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1869-03-27, Page 11” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 23 June 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_27031869/page/11/.
  • List
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Title Category Page
MASONIC CELESTIAL MYSTERIES. Article 1
MASONIC DISCIPLINE.—XIII. Article 3
ADDRESS. Article 5
THE PRAYERS OF THE CRAFT. Article 7
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 8
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 10
MASONIC DISCIPLINE. By CRUX. Article 11
Untitled Article 12
MASONIC MEMS. Article 12
MASONIC ARCHÆOLOGICAL INSTITUTE. Article 12
METROPOLITAN. Article 15
PROVINCIAL. Article 16
ROYAL ARCH. Article 17
MARK MASONRY. Article 18
MASONIC FESTIVITIES. Article 18
Obituary. Article 19
CHESHIRE EDUCATIONAL MASONIC INSTITUTION. Article 19
PUBLIC AMUSEMENTS. Article 19
NEW QUEEN'S THEATRE. Article 20
MEETINGS OF THE LEARNED SOCIETIES. Article 20
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 20
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

Correspondence.

afterwaras be initiated , and that this fee should be made a part of the charity fund for the relief of the indigent and distressed brethren , the Kilwinning Lodge petitioned that this fee should not be demanded from the operative Masons , many of whom found it difficult enough to advance tlie dues to their respective lodges . This request of the Kilwinning Masons

, however , was rejected ; and the Grand Lodge decreed that those who refused or neglected to pay the entrymoney , should receive no aid from the charity fund . " "The Kilwinning Masons " do not seem to have been well pleased at their petition being rejected , for shortly afterin 1743 Bro . Laurie again tells us ( page

, , 162 ) , that " a letter was read from the Lodge of Kilwinning , complaining that they were only second on the roll , while , as the mother loclge of Scotland , tbey were entitled to the first place . The Grand Lodge decreed that , as the Lodge of Kilwinning had produced no documents to show that they were the

oldest lodge in Scotland , and as the Lodge of Mary ' s Chapel had shown their records as far back as 1598 , the latter had an undoubted right to continue first on the roll . " The then Grand Lodge seems to have been composed of sensible men , who justly refused to

acknowledge the Lodge of Kilwinning ' s foundationless pretensions to be " the Mother Lodge of Scotland . " Mary ' s Chapel was , therefore , allowed to keep her position of No . 1 . Kilwinning then breaking faith with the G-rand Lodge , withdrew after seven years association , and set up , most unwarrantablya sort of rival Grand

, Lodge of its own . I say "breaking faith , " because the ground of excuse for their withdrawal was false . They wished to supersede Mary ' s Chapel , because , says Kilwinning , we are " the Mother Lodge of Scotland . " The Grand Lodge of 1743 , however , could not see that , no proof of any such assertion

being forthcoming ( nor I fear ever will ) ; so "Mother Kilwinning " taking the huff , as I said , breaks faith , and without any just or true reason leaves the Grand Lodge . In' 1807 , however , a new generation of Grand Lodge existed , composed it would seem of a greater number

of believing brethren , many of whom no doubt sucked in a certain portion of faith for the Kilwinning assertion ( or legend , being now 64 years older than in 1743 ) from the veritable fountain of Bro . A . Lauries ' lately published " History of Freemasonry , " 1804 .

( A query arises—Was there any ill-feeling between Mary ' s Chapel and Bro . Laurie about or before this time ?) In 1807 , therefore , the lodge of Kilwinning finding their legend now likely to have more practical effect * joined the Grand Lodge again , having the assurance to ask what it unfairly receivedviz . precedence of

, , "its ancient metropolitan rival , " and not that alone , but that its Master was to rank as Provincial Grand Master , and the fees for recording its entrants were to be considerably lower than those of its sister lodges in the kingdom . Of course this is the Kilwinning idea of Masonic equality . "What shall we

say , however , when it is now found that Mother Kilwinning ' s pretensions are simply an imposition , and its boasted motherhood of Masonry in Scotland false ?

Correspondence.

The least we can say is that justice to its sister lodges demands that its false plumes should be stripped off , and the Kilwinning lodge put upon the levelas it surely ought to be— -with its sister lodges . Bro , Lyon tells us , page 201 , that in 1807 " a solitary individual of Mary ' s Chapel entered his protest against the arrangements then made . " The name of this

"solitary individual " deserves to be recorded , and to be had in reverence by the brethren of Mary ' s Chapel . It is by the simple efforts of a few solitary individuals that we have gained so much Masonic knowledge lately . Galileo was a ' solitary individual" when he pronounced the words , "E pur se' muove . " Yet he

was ri ght , and the haughty multitude who surrounded him wrong , and I need not multiply examples . In regard to the ' * ' Ordinance " affecting Mother Kilwinning , said to have been written in 1589 , and subscribed " William Schaw , Master of "Wark , "Wairden of ye Maisons " ( a copy of which is given page 302 of the Magazine for April 1883 ) , I am not sure of its being genuine this idea rises from certain remarks , & c , which it contains . However , I shall think over it .

Bro . Lyon admits the value of Professor Lines , , opinion , and Mr . Innes says , "no Masons'lodge in the world can have had a charter from any Malcolm king of Scots . " "Well Malcolm IV . died in 1165 , and the Kilwinning brethren say their "lodge" was formed in 1140 . If it could have been then in existence what should prevent it getting a charter from

Malcolm IV ., seeing they were—at least so they say — " the mother lodge ? " when the builders of Glasgow Cathedral got one from his brother "William the Lion in 1190 , which Glasgow charter , Professor Innes says , " would make faith in any court of law . " Leaving our esteemed brother D . Murray Lyon to solve that problem , * I am fraternally yours , "W . P . BUCHAS " .

Masonic Discipline. By Crux.

MASONIC DISCIPLINE . By CRUX .

TO THE EDITOR OF THE EKEEMASOXS' MAGAZINE AUD MASONIC MIIIROB . Dear Sir and Brother , — -As the little fraternal " spar" between Bro . Pictus and myself may now be considered at an end , will you allow me , through the medium of your columns , to thank ' him for his good wishes , and also to assure him that I fully

reciprocate the feeling ' with which he comments upon my articles . I trust that should he , or any other brother not agree with any remarks that I may make , they will attack me in the same fraternal spirit . I shall defend myself of course , as every contributor to your valuable columns is bound to do , and in doing

so I shall be actuated by the same motives that have influenced me in everything that I have had to do with the Craft , namely , the advancement and welfare of the true interests of our Order . Yours fraternally , CEUX . London , 22 nd March , 1869 .

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