-
Articles/Ads
Article THE ROYAL BANK OF IRELAND. ← Page 2 of 2 Article THE ROYAL BANK OF IRELAND. Page 2 of 2 Article THE ROYAL BANK OF IRELAND. Page 2 of 2 Article Original Correspondence. Page 1 of 2 →
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.
The Royal Bank Of Ireland.
that at this time of the year a great many shareholders were anxious to have the dividends paid with a view to meeting their September rents . The amendment he would propose was that " the report be not received unless the directors undertake that
all future accounts furnished be audited and properly certified . " The directors could deal with that , perhaps , without eliciting any expression of opinion from him . The Chairman : Our customers would not approve of such a course as that . They would not
like , to see their accounts gone into by any body of gentlemen outside . ( Hear , hear . ) They are satisfied with the directors , and would not wish their business to be made known to gentlemen outside . ( Hear , hear . ) Mr . Dockwell said if that was the case , it became
his duty to express his feelings to the meeting on the subject . The chairman and directors might rest assured that he had the highest respect for them , and it was not his intention to say one word against them . They were all thoroughly deserving of the very high positions which they occupied .
They were a body of gentlemen of whom any shareholders ought to be proud —( hear , hear)—but yet the best body of men might be lead astray , and might hold different views from the shareholders regarding the management . He had known the late Mr . Callwell for many years , and always found
him a straightforward , upright , and honourable gentleman . As to Mr . Findlater , his name was a guarantee to any society . ( Hear , hear . ) His liberality all classes and creeds had access to , and he had raised testimonials by his generosity and kindness that would be handed down to posterity , and
convey to them his munificence and liberality . ( Hear , hear ) . The Chairman wa « aware that in their place there were equally excellent gentlemen as directors , but if from time to time the board was weighed in the balance and found wanting ; if their directors were , as he esteemed them , all first-class
and of high mercantile reputation , the greater would be the loss of the shareholders to lose them by any dispensation of Providence . Who could tell but it would be some young fellow like himself ( Mr . Dockrell )—( a laugh)—with all the giddiness of youth , that might be led into juvenile indulgence ,
that would be elected to fill the place of the first director if anything happened ? It was to guard against such a surprise he was anxious . The property of the shareholders was all there , and the responsibility of the directors was very great . He need not tell them that in an Unlimited Liability
Company the responsibility was very great ; and therefore the shareholders should avail themselves of every safeguard in their power . He knew not what the articles of association were—whether it was mandatory or permissive to have an audit—but he would assume there was a share of common
sense used in the framing of them . The chairman ' s predecessor had said that he did not know why the shareholders should not have an audit if they wished , and it was for the meeting now to decide what was the value of their report at present . If he litigated 2 s . 6 d . of a claim for dividend before any
Petty Sessions Court in the country , there was not a magistrate who would give an award without a declaration . Suppose he produced the report as evidence of his claim , he did not say a magistrate would give him the hint the Connaughtman got to go down stairs , but he would put him out of court ,
and tell htm the document was valueless—that it was not audited , and could not be relied upon . There was not a shareholder in the room that day who could tell that minute whether it was from capital or revenue they were to be paid the dividend . They had the directors' words for it , it was true .
and there was no one more anxious to rely on that than he was ; but yet the fact remained , they did - not know whether it was from capital or revenue it came . A noticeable example of that had occurred at the Midland Railway , where money was borrowed to pay a dividend of 5 per centwhen the company
, was in the greatest misery , If that was done before , it might be gone again elsewhere , but far be it from him to say it would be done in their bank . However , to guard against it , they ought to have an audit . He would venture to put forward these opinions now , and he thought he would be assisted
by the shareholders . The chairman had started an objection that some of the depositors or customers at the bank would be apt to leave in case there was an audit ; but he ( Mr . Dockrell ) thought that that was far from being a right argument . The Chairman : I beg your pardon ; what I meant
to convey was that those who send their bills here to be discounted would not like to have outsiders acquainted with their business , and of course an auditor's business would be to look into all accounts , and a long time it would take them to do so .
Mr . Dockrell said that secrecy was observed in all banks . He had an account in the Bank and his son had another , and neither of them could find out what was to the other ' s credit unless they told each other . Why could not auditors be bound to secrecy ? Eyen suppose customers left the Bank ,
The Royal Bank Of Ireland.
where would they go but to other banks ? and they were auditors in the whole of them . The Chairman : Only in one . Mr . Dockrell though there was more than one . At the last meeting Judge Little had put a question to the directors which appeared to be important ,
and nothing could be more satisfactory than the answer of the directors . They not only gave an account of that Bank , but also of the Scotch banks and their statistics . He assumed from that that the board would have no difficulty in answering a question that he now wished to put—what did the
branches cost , and what did they make above it ? As to the policy of having those branches here and there , he dissented from it , and they should consider whether it would be better to continue them or not . He would not detain the meeting longer , but would beg to propose the amendment , whether it was seconded or not , to test the shareholders in
reference to the question he raised . Judge Little said that before the amendment would be put he would explain what Mr . Dockrell had alluded to . At the last meeting several shareholders said the expenditure of the bank was larger in their judgment than it ought to be . He intimated that view to the managing director , and informed him that it would be desirable that he
should be prepared on the next occasion with a statement to satisfy the shareholders on that point . Now , it was not exactly a fair way , he took it , to ask what might be the direct expenditure of the branches , because the branches were new—they were only gatherers , as it were , for the great stream .
What he would now wish to ask was , relatively what was their expenditure compared with the expenditure of other banks with regard to capital and business ? That was the question , and that was the question put to him to ask on the last occasion of meeting by several gentlemen who were now
present . With reference to the principal question before the meeting , he thought it was quite legitimate and quite expedient , where there was so much capital embarked , that there should be a ripple created on the surface where there was so much water , but it might only ripple to show the water
was all the clearer underneath . ( Hear , hear . ) The appointment of auditors , he thought , would be an additional expense , but then the question came back—had they confidence in the directors ? ( Hear , hear . ) If there was a shadow of suspicion on that point it would be the duty of any man to propound
it . The gentlemen who constituted this board were well known to the public . They were gentlemen of position and capital , of practical ability and of great commercial experience . It might be if there was an infusion of somewhat a different element , it would give a certain satisfaction to soim of the
shareholders . It might be that some present were not satisfied , as they were not on the last occasion , that they had not a greater variety combined in the board ; but for practical ability and commercial ability he thought no exception could be taken to the gentlemen of the board . ( Hear , hear . ) He
did not see himself the propriety of appointing auditors , who were only two additional directors in reality if they went to that . ( No , no . ) They might have the name of auditors , but their duty would be to revise the operations of the directors , and the business from day to day . There would be no
billdiscounter that would not come under their observation , and no account could be opened that was not submitted to them , and they passed their judgment not only on all the advances made to branches but on the business of the principal institution itself . ( Hear , hear . )
Mr . Charles Copland , managing director , said he was happy to be able to answer the question that had been asked—the branches did pay and returned a profit . They were important additions , and not only created a new business for them but secured the old , for , in consequence of the competition that
was going on , unless they had put out these feeders others banks would have done so , and drawn from them what they had now secured . It was a gratifying fact that during the last year the accounts were increased 160 odd , and within the last ten years they would be surprised to hear the accounts had
increased 1 , 100 . In 1861 the current accounts were 2 , 590 ; in 1871 they are 3 , 660 , and the increase of 160 has taken place within the last twelve months . ( Hear , hear . ) With respect to the inquiry in reference to the expenditure , he had taken pains to ascertain , as far as possible , the expenditure of the
bank . He should remark that other banks did not give the full details they did in their report . Of course that was a matter entirely for their own consideration , but comparing their expenditure with that of those banks that gave details , he found the satisfactory result that the Royal was 6 per cent .,
compared with 7 , 8 , and 10 per cent , of other establishments . ( Hear , hear . ) He did not like to mention names , for that would be invidious , but any gentleman who took the trouble of examining such accounts of expendituie as were published would see that the Royal Bank was decidedly and considerably under other similar establishments ,
The Royal Bank Of Ireland.
With respect to having auditors , that was a question he could not enter upon—it was entirely for the shareholders . Mr . Dockrell then stated that as his amendment had not been seconded , he was quite satisfied that his opinions were not acquiesced in by the other shareholders . He would , therefore , withdraw the
amendment . The Chairman then put the original motion for the adoption of the report and accounts , which was passed unanimously . Mr . Taylor proposed that Mr . Valentine O'Brien
O'Connor , retiring director , be re-elected . The motion was seconded and adopted . Mr . Findlater proposed that Mr . Alexander Parker , High Sheriff , be elected director . Mr . O'Brien seconded the motion , which was also adopted .
Original Correspondence.
Original Correspondence .
The Editor is not responsible for the opinions expressed by Correspondents . " FREEMASONRY AND JUDAISM . " ( To the Editor of The Freemason . ) DEAR SIR AND BROTHER , —In replying to Bro . Carpenter ' s letter at page 570 , 1 desire that it be kept in mind that we are " Freemasons , " and that , as such , it matters not whether we be Jew or Turk , Hindoo or Christian , Unitarian or Trinitarian ; all are alike to Freemasonry , and justice to itself demands that within its pale all be put upon the level—agreeing to differ , and differing to agree . Consequently , while the Christian reader of THE FREEMASON may state what his views are ( as does J . W . C , at page 587 ) , it is only fair to allow any non-Christian , Mahomedan , or Hindoo reader to come forward and state his . To return to Bro . Carpenter , however . We have all seen that for many weeks back he has been giving his views upon the above subject , and in doing so he has not only made it apparent that he considers the Bible to be emphatically The Book and infallible , but he has also supported
the idea that Christianity , as given out by him , is The Religion . Now , I am aware that many brethren think otherwise , and that instead of the Bible being infallible , it is full of mistakes , and one version full of mistranslations ; while , also ,
many fables have crept into it , marring the beauty of its other noble features . As to Bro . Carpenter ' s explanations and assumptions , upon many things , they seem to be rather gratuitous . He looks upon the latter portion of the xliv . chapter of
Isaiah as a prophecy , written by Isaiah long long before the Babylonish captivity , and therefore miraculous , or supernatural ; but where is his proof for such an extraordinary idea ? He does not bring forward the shadow of a
substantial proof to support it ; while as to its being a song of thanksgiving , not only does its own contents , or the internal evidence , show this , but such an idea is quite natural and in accordance with all the circumstaces of the case , and although
Bro . Carpenter may tell us that Isaiah was its author , yet Renan and others tell us he was not , and , independent of them , looking to the whole circumstances of the case , it appears to me that , allowing Isaiah to have died a considerable time before the Babylonish captivity took place , then
he no more wrote this " song" referred to than I did . It was , however , written by a kindred spirit , probably in order to stimulate the Jews during the going on of some of the transactions recorded in Ezra , and being so written it was afterwards incorporated with Isaiah .
It appears to me to be with Bro . Carpenter just as it has been with myself , viz ., we have both been taking far too many of our ideas , in connection with the Bible , upon trust . That is to say , that instead of examining it in an impartial
and thoroughly independent manner , we have altogether been guided , hitherto , by our early training and belief , thus getting only a one-sided view . Now that is wrong , for that shows that our belief in the Bible as a better book than the Vedas or the Koran is simply , in great measure ,
owing to the mere accident of birth or parentage . This is little credit to either of us , and leaves the possibility of our being wrong quite open . For years after joining the Masonic fraternity I believed , generally speaking , in the popular ideas of its history , rise , and progress , but no sooner
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.
The Royal Bank Of Ireland.
that at this time of the year a great many shareholders were anxious to have the dividends paid with a view to meeting their September rents . The amendment he would propose was that " the report be not received unless the directors undertake that
all future accounts furnished be audited and properly certified . " The directors could deal with that , perhaps , without eliciting any expression of opinion from him . The Chairman : Our customers would not approve of such a course as that . They would not
like , to see their accounts gone into by any body of gentlemen outside . ( Hear , hear . ) They are satisfied with the directors , and would not wish their business to be made known to gentlemen outside . ( Hear , hear . ) Mr . Dockwell said if that was the case , it became
his duty to express his feelings to the meeting on the subject . The chairman and directors might rest assured that he had the highest respect for them , and it was not his intention to say one word against them . They were all thoroughly deserving of the very high positions which they occupied .
They were a body of gentlemen of whom any shareholders ought to be proud —( hear , hear)—but yet the best body of men might be lead astray , and might hold different views from the shareholders regarding the management . He had known the late Mr . Callwell for many years , and always found
him a straightforward , upright , and honourable gentleman . As to Mr . Findlater , his name was a guarantee to any society . ( Hear , hear . ) His liberality all classes and creeds had access to , and he had raised testimonials by his generosity and kindness that would be handed down to posterity , and
convey to them his munificence and liberality . ( Hear , hear ) . The Chairman wa « aware that in their place there were equally excellent gentlemen as directors , but if from time to time the board was weighed in the balance and found wanting ; if their directors were , as he esteemed them , all first-class
and of high mercantile reputation , the greater would be the loss of the shareholders to lose them by any dispensation of Providence . Who could tell but it would be some young fellow like himself ( Mr . Dockrell )—( a laugh)—with all the giddiness of youth , that might be led into juvenile indulgence ,
that would be elected to fill the place of the first director if anything happened ? It was to guard against such a surprise he was anxious . The property of the shareholders was all there , and the responsibility of the directors was very great . He need not tell them that in an Unlimited Liability
Company the responsibility was very great ; and therefore the shareholders should avail themselves of every safeguard in their power . He knew not what the articles of association were—whether it was mandatory or permissive to have an audit—but he would assume there was a share of common
sense used in the framing of them . The chairman ' s predecessor had said that he did not know why the shareholders should not have an audit if they wished , and it was for the meeting now to decide what was the value of their report at present . If he litigated 2 s . 6 d . of a claim for dividend before any
Petty Sessions Court in the country , there was not a magistrate who would give an award without a declaration . Suppose he produced the report as evidence of his claim , he did not say a magistrate would give him the hint the Connaughtman got to go down stairs , but he would put him out of court ,
and tell htm the document was valueless—that it was not audited , and could not be relied upon . There was not a shareholder in the room that day who could tell that minute whether it was from capital or revenue they were to be paid the dividend . They had the directors' words for it , it was true .
and there was no one more anxious to rely on that than he was ; but yet the fact remained , they did - not know whether it was from capital or revenue it came . A noticeable example of that had occurred at the Midland Railway , where money was borrowed to pay a dividend of 5 per centwhen the company
, was in the greatest misery , If that was done before , it might be gone again elsewhere , but far be it from him to say it would be done in their bank . However , to guard against it , they ought to have an audit . He would venture to put forward these opinions now , and he thought he would be assisted
by the shareholders . The chairman had started an objection that some of the depositors or customers at the bank would be apt to leave in case there was an audit ; but he ( Mr . Dockrell ) thought that that was far from being a right argument . The Chairman : I beg your pardon ; what I meant
to convey was that those who send their bills here to be discounted would not like to have outsiders acquainted with their business , and of course an auditor's business would be to look into all accounts , and a long time it would take them to do so .
Mr . Dockrell said that secrecy was observed in all banks . He had an account in the Bank and his son had another , and neither of them could find out what was to the other ' s credit unless they told each other . Why could not auditors be bound to secrecy ? Eyen suppose customers left the Bank ,
The Royal Bank Of Ireland.
where would they go but to other banks ? and they were auditors in the whole of them . The Chairman : Only in one . Mr . Dockrell though there was more than one . At the last meeting Judge Little had put a question to the directors which appeared to be important ,
and nothing could be more satisfactory than the answer of the directors . They not only gave an account of that Bank , but also of the Scotch banks and their statistics . He assumed from that that the board would have no difficulty in answering a question that he now wished to put—what did the
branches cost , and what did they make above it ? As to the policy of having those branches here and there , he dissented from it , and they should consider whether it would be better to continue them or not . He would not detain the meeting longer , but would beg to propose the amendment , whether it was seconded or not , to test the shareholders in
reference to the question he raised . Judge Little said that before the amendment would be put he would explain what Mr . Dockrell had alluded to . At the last meeting several shareholders said the expenditure of the bank was larger in their judgment than it ought to be . He intimated that view to the managing director , and informed him that it would be desirable that he
should be prepared on the next occasion with a statement to satisfy the shareholders on that point . Now , it was not exactly a fair way , he took it , to ask what might be the direct expenditure of the branches , because the branches were new—they were only gatherers , as it were , for the great stream .
What he would now wish to ask was , relatively what was their expenditure compared with the expenditure of other banks with regard to capital and business ? That was the question , and that was the question put to him to ask on the last occasion of meeting by several gentlemen who were now
present . With reference to the principal question before the meeting , he thought it was quite legitimate and quite expedient , where there was so much capital embarked , that there should be a ripple created on the surface where there was so much water , but it might only ripple to show the water
was all the clearer underneath . ( Hear , hear . ) The appointment of auditors , he thought , would be an additional expense , but then the question came back—had they confidence in the directors ? ( Hear , hear . ) If there was a shadow of suspicion on that point it would be the duty of any man to propound
it . The gentlemen who constituted this board were well known to the public . They were gentlemen of position and capital , of practical ability and of great commercial experience . It might be if there was an infusion of somewhat a different element , it would give a certain satisfaction to soim of the
shareholders . It might be that some present were not satisfied , as they were not on the last occasion , that they had not a greater variety combined in the board ; but for practical ability and commercial ability he thought no exception could be taken to the gentlemen of the board . ( Hear , hear . ) He
did not see himself the propriety of appointing auditors , who were only two additional directors in reality if they went to that . ( No , no . ) They might have the name of auditors , but their duty would be to revise the operations of the directors , and the business from day to day . There would be no
billdiscounter that would not come under their observation , and no account could be opened that was not submitted to them , and they passed their judgment not only on all the advances made to branches but on the business of the principal institution itself . ( Hear , hear . )
Mr . Charles Copland , managing director , said he was happy to be able to answer the question that had been asked—the branches did pay and returned a profit . They were important additions , and not only created a new business for them but secured the old , for , in consequence of the competition that
was going on , unless they had put out these feeders others banks would have done so , and drawn from them what they had now secured . It was a gratifying fact that during the last year the accounts were increased 160 odd , and within the last ten years they would be surprised to hear the accounts had
increased 1 , 100 . In 1861 the current accounts were 2 , 590 ; in 1871 they are 3 , 660 , and the increase of 160 has taken place within the last twelve months . ( Hear , hear . ) With respect to the inquiry in reference to the expenditure , he had taken pains to ascertain , as far as possible , the expenditure of the
bank . He should remark that other banks did not give the full details they did in their report . Of course that was a matter entirely for their own consideration , but comparing their expenditure with that of those banks that gave details , he found the satisfactory result that the Royal was 6 per cent .,
compared with 7 , 8 , and 10 per cent , of other establishments . ( Hear , hear . ) He did not like to mention names , for that would be invidious , but any gentleman who took the trouble of examining such accounts of expendituie as were published would see that the Royal Bank was decidedly and considerably under other similar establishments ,
The Royal Bank Of Ireland.
With respect to having auditors , that was a question he could not enter upon—it was entirely for the shareholders . Mr . Dockrell then stated that as his amendment had not been seconded , he was quite satisfied that his opinions were not acquiesced in by the other shareholders . He would , therefore , withdraw the
amendment . The Chairman then put the original motion for the adoption of the report and accounts , which was passed unanimously . Mr . Taylor proposed that Mr . Valentine O'Brien
O'Connor , retiring director , be re-elected . The motion was seconded and adopted . Mr . Findlater proposed that Mr . Alexander Parker , High Sheriff , be elected director . Mr . O'Brien seconded the motion , which was also adopted .
Original Correspondence.
Original Correspondence .
The Editor is not responsible for the opinions expressed by Correspondents . " FREEMASONRY AND JUDAISM . " ( To the Editor of The Freemason . ) DEAR SIR AND BROTHER , —In replying to Bro . Carpenter ' s letter at page 570 , 1 desire that it be kept in mind that we are " Freemasons , " and that , as such , it matters not whether we be Jew or Turk , Hindoo or Christian , Unitarian or Trinitarian ; all are alike to Freemasonry , and justice to itself demands that within its pale all be put upon the level—agreeing to differ , and differing to agree . Consequently , while the Christian reader of THE FREEMASON may state what his views are ( as does J . W . C , at page 587 ) , it is only fair to allow any non-Christian , Mahomedan , or Hindoo reader to come forward and state his . To return to Bro . Carpenter , however . We have all seen that for many weeks back he has been giving his views upon the above subject , and in doing so he has not only made it apparent that he considers the Bible to be emphatically The Book and infallible , but he has also supported
the idea that Christianity , as given out by him , is The Religion . Now , I am aware that many brethren think otherwise , and that instead of the Bible being infallible , it is full of mistakes , and one version full of mistranslations ; while , also ,
many fables have crept into it , marring the beauty of its other noble features . As to Bro . Carpenter ' s explanations and assumptions , upon many things , they seem to be rather gratuitous . He looks upon the latter portion of the xliv . chapter of
Isaiah as a prophecy , written by Isaiah long long before the Babylonish captivity , and therefore miraculous , or supernatural ; but where is his proof for such an extraordinary idea ? He does not bring forward the shadow of a
substantial proof to support it ; while as to its being a song of thanksgiving , not only does its own contents , or the internal evidence , show this , but such an idea is quite natural and in accordance with all the circumstaces of the case , and although
Bro . Carpenter may tell us that Isaiah was its author , yet Renan and others tell us he was not , and , independent of them , looking to the whole circumstances of the case , it appears to me that , allowing Isaiah to have died a considerable time before the Babylonish captivity took place , then
he no more wrote this " song" referred to than I did . It was , however , written by a kindred spirit , probably in order to stimulate the Jews during the going on of some of the transactions recorded in Ezra , and being so written it was afterwards incorporated with Isaiah .
It appears to me to be with Bro . Carpenter just as it has been with myself , viz ., we have both been taking far too many of our ideas , in connection with the Bible , upon trust . That is to say , that instead of examining it in an impartial
and thoroughly independent manner , we have altogether been guided , hitherto , by our early training and belief , thus getting only a one-sided view . Now that is wrong , for that shows that our belief in the Bible as a better book than the Vedas or the Koran is simply , in great measure ,
owing to the mere accident of birth or parentage . This is little credit to either of us , and leaves the possibility of our being wrong quite open . For years after joining the Masonic fraternity I believed , generally speaking , in the popular ideas of its history , rise , and progress , but no sooner